Murder of college athletes leads to execution of interstate serial killer – TCD Sidebar
In this episode of True Crime Daily The Sidebar Podcast
Jen Morrison and Andrea Shreeman join host Joshua Ritter to discuss the murders of two college athletes that led to the execution of an interstate serial killer.
Tweet your questions for future episodes to Joshua Ritter using the hashtag #TCDSidebar.
Joshua Ritter:
[00:00:10]
Hello and welcome to The Sidebar, presented by True Crime Daily, taking you inside the courtrooms of high profile and notorious cases from across the country. I'm your host, Joshua Ritter. I'm a criminal defense lawyer based in Los Angeles and previously an LA County prosecutor for nearly a decade. We are recording this on Wednesday, June 28th, 2023.
And we're doing something a little bit different for this week's episode. Oftentimes on this show, we cover cases that are covered widely in the media. But every once in a while, we think it's important to highlight a case that may not have received as much extensive coverage and talk about how that case has really affected people's lives.
And so this week, we will take a look at one of those cases. It involves an interstate serial killer who was ultimately executed in Virginia after multiple convictions and even a separate death sentence in another state, which is pretty remarkable in and of itself. All in all, law enforcement has linked this person to as many as nine brutal killings.
And today we are very honored to be joined by two special guests with intimate ties to this horrible story. Joining me are Jennifer Morrison, Vermont's commissioner of public safety, and Andrea Freeman, a LA based writer, director and producer. Together, they host the Hero Maker podcast dedicated to revealing the real-life events surrounding the 1988 murders of their college friends Rachael Raver and Warren Fulton III, two of the victims of the serial killer, Alfredo Prieto.
Jen and Andrea, thank you so much for joining us and sharing your story and this journey with us. And I quickly introduced too both of you, but if you don't mind, for listeners, tell us a little bit more about yourselves. Go ahead, Jen.
Jennifer Morrison:
[00:01:57]
Sure. As you mentioned, I'm the commissioner of public safety in the State of Vermont. And prior to that, I spent 28.5 years in municipal policing, serving in every rank and role between patrol officer and chief of police in the city of Burlington, where I spent 23.5 years, and in the town of Colchester, where I spent just over five years.
Joshua Ritter:
[00:02:20]
Wow. And how about you, Andrea?
Andrea Freeman:
[00:02:22]
It's so great to be here with you, Joshua. Thank you so much for taking an interest in what we're doing with the Hero Maker podcast and in this case, these cases, these many linked cases. So I am a writer, director and executive producer. I live in Los Angeles. I have worked on 11 narrative features, four documentary features in various positions, including in an executive producer position on a film that won Sundance in 2008, a film called Fuel.
Joshua Ritter:
[00:02:51]
Congratulations.
Andrea Freeman:
[00:02:52]
Thank you. I worked with that filmmaking couple, the directors on that several times. And in fact, we have a film that came out last year that I highly recommend. That's called The Revolution Generation. And so I have had a little bit of traction in the documentary world, but I also work a lot in narrative. And yeah, you can go look me up, but that's the basics and happy to be here.
Joshua Ritter:
[00:03:21]
Great. And what's great about it and as people are going to find out is that your respective careers, though you guys started out your adolescent lives together and then went off to your separate careers, they both kind of tie in and play a role in this current project that you're both involved in, which I think is kind of a fascinating story in and of itself.
So what I'd like to do is just kind of walk through how this developed in your lives and you guys please just fill in the pieces where you can. But just as a short introduction, we're talking about in the 1980s, you were both scholarship athletes at George Washington University.
And Jennifer, you were the captain of the women's soccer team. It was there that you met Warren Fulton III and Rachael Raver, both of whom would later become the victims of serial killer Alfredo Prieto. Tell us first, just about this time in your lives, what were things like?
Jennifer Morrison:
[00:04:25]
Well, you know, we were playing soccer. We were training hard. We were training not so hard in the off season. We were, in many cases like mine, young adults who had never been in a big city environment like Washington, D.C. before. So there was a whole lot to discover at GW studying, making friends, and we hung out a lot with the women's soccer players, hung out a lot with the gymnasts, the women gymnasts, and then with the men's soccer team, the men's baseball team and the wrestlers. So there was definitely large groups of athletic students who hung around together.
And I mean it was typical college times. We were a little bit in a bubble, and we had a really wonderful time at GW. I met Rachael when I, you know, first day of pre-season, my freshman year at GW. She was a couple years older than me. And then in her, the year before she was murdered, we met Warren through her. Warren had been a transfer onto the boys, the men's baseball team.
And when the two of them got together, we were all just like, they're so cute together. They're so adorable. And they really were. They were this all-American couple who were responsible and respectful. They were smart, funny, athletic. And there's just so much that I could say that's positive about Warren and Rachael, but they truly were the epitome of all American kids who were just starting out in their life.
Joshua Ritter:
[00:06:02]
Yeah. I was not a part of the athletic life when I was in college, but I can imagine. And Andrea, fill us in on this, it's got to be almost like a fraternity or sorority environment with the -- it's got to be closer is what I'm imagining. And you tell us, but this is how I'm imagining that it's just a different experience to be a part of the athletic life on a campus like this.
Andrea Freeman:
[00:06:29]
Yeah. I mean one of the things that I would add from the gymnastics side is that we trained hard in the off season. But yeah, it was very close knit and part of that was there was a massive and I guess this happens on most university campuses where freshmen have their own dorm. The kids who are coming in, there's a place.
But as an incoming freshman and an athlete, I didn't have that. We went immediately to the athletic dorms, which were maybe a little nicer. We had kitchens. We would go eat together, we would train together, we would hang out together. And they wanted -- we were considered student athletes. So student first. They wanted to make sure that we were really keeping up with our studies. And so we did that, also studied together and traveled together. And yeah, it was a really unique experience for sure.
Joshua Ritter:
[00:07:23]
Yeah. And Jen, you started to touch on this a little bit, but I'll start with you, Andrea. Tell us about Rachael and Warren. What were they like? Just give us a flavor of these people.
Andrea Freeman:
[00:07:36]
I'm actually going to share some of the things that we've learned. We have had -- and because at the time, of course, they were part of this group. And and for me, it was more about the group than the individuals. But they were very kind, very hard working.
Especially like Warren, hardworking, devoted. He was a walk on to the baseball team. So he had to really work for anything he got in that situation. He also worked himself through school. So he had a job. And one of the things that, Jen, I wanted to add was that his parents were both ministers in the Salvation Army.
And these two college students, Rachael and Warren, would go to church with his parents on the weekends. So it's saying a lot. It's just, again, unique and stand out. Right. And Rachael was a very bright, light, smart and funny and very buoyant and beautiful, physically beautiful and about to enter law school. And that's, yeah, that's what there is for me to share about them.
Jennifer Morrison:
[00:08:45]
Well, Rachael had an uncanny ability to just say the right thing at the right time to lighten the mood. Like if we were losing or if things weren't going well between the coaches and the players or in a friend group, she just always was the one who could say something that wasn't rude and it was just the right thing to turn everybody's mood around. She really was a ray of sunshine.
Joshua Ritter:
[00:09:09]
Wow. They sound like beautiful people. And so now I kind of hate how this is going to have to turn in our discussion. But if you could now bring us to we're talking about December 4th of 1988. Warren and Rachael go missing after leaving a local bar. And tragically, their bodies are later discovered in a secluded wooded area near Reston, Virginia.
And according to the investigation, Rachael has been sexually assaulted and both victims are shot to death. And I don't want to dwell upon the graphic elements of this, but I think it is important in doing justice to what was the experience that you both had and the community had. It's also believed that Rachael may have been sexually assaulted as she was dying from her injuries just to kind of give at least one element of how horrible a murder this really was. I guess --
Andrea Freeman:
[00:10:14]
I would like to actually interject something there, if that's okay. It was testified by many experts that she was shot, and she was dying as she was being raped. And we have learned through those other cases that this may have been a repeated technique that Prieto used to prevent his victim from escaping during the sexual assault.
Joshua Ritter:
[00:10:37]
And again, it's not so central to our discussion, but I think that pointing something out like that is important because there are different levels of kind of depraved murderers. But I think we're dealing with a real fringe element of monster who is using that as the way that you're explaining it even now, almost as a tool to help them facilitate the rape and eventual murders of these folks. And again, I think that's important to understand as a backdrop to what you guys were experiencing and the family and the community and everyone else.
And so, Jen, I'll start with you. Just talk to us initially what was that like, the impact on you, the community, the college campus, the athletic department, to hear about what had happened?
Jennifer Morrison:
[00:11:36]
We knew something was wrong when they did not show up. Well, when Warren did not show up for practice on Sunday afternoon and by Monday, when neither of them had been heard from, we knew something was terribly wrong. But nothing could have prepared us to receive the news and see body bags being pulled out of a field in Reston, Virginia, on the evening news, simultaneous to receiving the news.
Now, remember, there were no cell phones. You had to be in your dorm room, and we were all gathered. There was a bunch of us gathered at a corner room at the end of the hall when we got the phone call that this was happening. And it was like we were getting the news as the news broadcast was playing. And it was a wave of stress hormones, trauma hormones. And so many of us can't remember.
We still can't to this day put together full memories of exactly what happened in the ensuing hours. We've pieced together a lot of it, but for the GW athletic community, it was earth shaking. A place that we saw as our playground, our intellectual playground, our athletic playground, our, you know, partying playground. The city of Washington, D.C. changed fundamentally in all our eyes.
Now, be very clear. You're in a bubble when you're at college. It was already the murder capital of the US at the time, but that wasn't how we regarded it. We didn't see it that way until this happened. And the minute this happened, it was absolute devastation. There was a lot of fear, particularly in the younger players, and that fear could not be smoothed over because we didn't have answers for so many years. And I know we'll get to that. But it was a huge, huge ripple in a large pond, but those ripples were tsunami sized waves for her friends and family.
Joshua Ritter:
[00:13:38]
Yeah. Andrea, please.
Andrea Freeman:
[00:13:40]
Well, I mean, what I would maybe just add to that is my own personal texture of witnessing the core group of very, very close people, teammates starting to move through the campus as it was like a dark cloud, but they were all so like closely knit. It was like this cloud of grief that just started traveling together and bonding together and supporting each other to try to get through it.
And then texturally for me, I was working at the Four Seasons Fitness Club at the time, and I opened the club at 4 a.m. every morning. So I had to go from Foggy Bottom down into like the base of Georgetown at 4 a.m., like at 3:30 in the morning. And I just remember running every day to get there. I ran everywhere anyway because I was a napper. So like, I was always late. I was, like, running. But, yeah, but running and thinking to myself, like just in a way that I hadn't previous to their murders. And but knowing also that year, 1988, was the year that DC eclipsed Detroit and had the highest murder rate in the country.
Joshua Ritter:
[00:15:02]
Wow. One of the reasons why I wanted to do this, and I think it's important to talk to people who didn't just cover a story or investigate a story, but people who actually lived through it is just these little details like you, Andrea, talking about running to work out of just fear, but even Jennifer hadn't even thought about it.
But just the way that we get news now, it's so immediate and so accessible that if it's not on your cell phone immediately, several different news reports about an event, you're texting 15 different people and sharing information. But you guys don't have the advantage of any of that at the time. And so you're just watching this all develop on the news and it's about someone that you're so close to.
Jennifer Morrison:
[00:15:53]
Yeah. Different time. Totally different time.
Joshua Ritter:
[00:15:57]
Yeah. Incredible. Okay. Well, you had alluded to it, but this goes unsolved. And so there is no immediate kind of closure. And you guys are -- we're going to skip forward a few decades to talk about what eventually happened. But before we get there, one of the things I was most curious about in talking to the both of you about this is what was that like? I mean, immediately, I imagine there's the, what happened and the confusion that turns into, well, are they ever going to catch this person? But now we're talking about decades passing of wondering what's happening. What was that like, that interim period before you start to hear any developments?
Jennifer Morrison:
[00:16:41]
I can tell you that as the captain of the soccer team, it was really frustrating. I was trying to provide answers and offer some comfort and reassurance to the other players that this was okay and there was nothing but a black hole. There was no progress. So in the short term, it actually made the fear worse because we didn't know anything.
In the long term, I can say that this case was one of the strong motivators for me beginning a career in law enforcement and staying in law enforcement all this time, because I couldn't reconcile the fact that some beautiful humans could be removed from the earth in such a savage way and that no one can figure out by who or why. And so trying to want to get answers for other people similarly situated became a big driving motivator for me.
And so it was one of those things that you could not think about for a few months at a time as you grew further and further away from the incident and being in college. But there was always something, the anniversary or something that came up, or you came across a photograph and you'd always have it in the back of your mind. And then once information started flowing, I actually do feel like the way I felt about their murders changed a little bit because it seemed like there was hope that somebody would be held accountable.
Joshua Ritter:
[00:18:06]
Yeah. Andrea, I want to ask you the same question. And I'm curious, too, was there any kind of speculation at the time, oh, this must be connected to some other event or, oh, they have a lead? Or was it just nothing and you guys have no idea what's going on?
Andrea Freeman:
[00:18:25]
So for me personally, because I was not on like the inner sanctum and I did kind of move on with my life and I moved across the country away from where I thought this horrible event had happened, I wasn't in like a day-to-day bout with it. But I will tell you that from now, doing, talking to Rachael's sister and brother, what I know is that they were constantly, constantly working on it in communication with the investigators. Her mom would find things that seemed similar, either see something on television or her brother would -- I mean the interview with Matt Raber is incredible. He ended up finding evidence. He ended up finding a suspect. And he was very, very involved.
So I think for the people on the inside, they kept churning and churning and churning and working and taking their energy and their sadness and their grief and turning it into some kind of action. In my exploration, our exploration of these events, I have discovered that this is like one type of way that people respond to this sudden violent loss is that they have this energy, and they have to put it to use.
So I know that people were working on it, and I will say Fairfax never gave it up. Fairfax County put a lot of resources behind it, always had it alive, had an incredible initial investigative team on it. And then once Cold Case came online, which was they were one of the very first cold case units in the country. Fairfax is a, for its size, a very well-resourced department and officers remembered the case and said that's the box I want, give me that box. I want to pick this up.
And part of that, I want to add is that the Ravers themselves and the Fultons, but specifically we've talked more with the Ravers, were such beautiful people as a family and they wore their grief on their sleeves that when you met Veronica Raver, Rachael's mother, you fell in love with her. And it made you -- and when you learned who the kids were, it just drove these people like, I want to do this not only for myself, as a professional. That's what Murphy would say. But he's out there fighting to get answers for their parents and their families.
Joshua Ritter:
[00:21:05]
It's incredible to see, like you said, that people handle this type of drama and grief in different ways. And some people just put all of their energies into something positive with their lives. And I just find it so amazing and commendable. And we've all asked ourselves the question, what would we do if having experienced something nightmarish like this?
And it's just it really is inspiring if there's a way to find some positive energy around all of this. It's inspiring to see people who do find a way to get some good out of it or concentrate that mourning into some sort of positive way. All right.
So now, we're 17 years later, just so people are keeping up with when I'm talking about a decades of time going by. Literally, it's 17 years later, Alfredo Prieto is serving time as a death row inmate in California, having already been convicted for the murder of Yvette Woodruff in 1992. Remarkably, after legislation requiring all convicts to be entered into a national database, a DNA hit in September of 2005 matches Prieto to the slayings of Warren and Rachael.
Andrea, I'll start with you. Tell us, well, first of all, were you guys made aware of this when it first happened? Was it still enough a part of your lives that you found out about this? And tell us what it was like to have to find out that there's a suspect now.
Andrea Freeman:
[00:22:53]
We did have a breakthrough in the case five years prior to that, which was 12 years in 2000 when DNA linked their event to another --
Jennifer Morrison:
[00:23:06]
East Coast case.
Andrea Freeman:
[00:23:07]
Yeah, rape and murder that was like 20 minutes away. And if you go to the Velda Jefferson episode, which is episode four, I think of the podcast, the mother of that young lady speaks and speaks about how the families came together and started to share in their grief and experiences and found some kind of love and hope, renewed hope out of that connection.
Really, that was a big change for us. That was like the first moment where we were like, oh my goodness, like this might actually -- there's movement. This might actually have -- there might be hope that we could find this killer, but it was just linking these murders. We didn't know the killer at that time.
Joshua Ritter:
[00:23:52]
Well, but correct me if I'm wrong here, you're then realizing at that point that this may be a serial killer, right? Or at least this person is responsible for other murders. It isn't some isolated event of some person that may have disappeared long time ago.
Andrea Freeman:
[00:24:08]
Yeah, I don't think serial killer was really in the vernacular yet, but it was not surprising based on the just grotesque nature of what happened to Rachael and Warren that this person had killed someone else.
Joshua Ritter:
[00:24:26]
Wow.
Jennifer Morrison:
[00:24:26]
Right. And then in 2005, when the suspect was identified and learning that he was already on death row for other gruesome crimes, I can tell you that we learned of this, the women's soccer team learned of this in a very timely manner. It wasn't immediate. I'm sure it was days after the family found out. But that was one of those points where maybe you haven't talked to your teammates in a year, maybe you haven't really stayed in touch and all of a sudden, we're all communicating again with like, can you believe it? Can you believe it?
And while it introduced a level of ickiness because it started to become clear that this was not just a serial killer, but a depraved and indiscriminate serial killer who did not just kill people to sexually assault the women and whose victims spanned an age range from 15 to the 70s, it became clear that this was a really depraved human, but that it also brought some closure. And so it's a mixed bag of emotions that I remember feeling when it finally felt like there's an answer as to the who. We'll never know the why, but the guy is locked up. So it was a good moment.
Joshua Ritter:
[00:25:37]
Yeah. Tell me a little bit more about what you were saying, that you're starting to figure out how depraved this person was. Did you come to be aware of the circumstances of Yvette's murder at that time?
Jennifer Morrison:
[00:25:52]
So in the early days in 2005, all we knew is that he was on death row for a triple abduction that resulted in the homicide of a teenager. That's all I knew. And in fact, that's all I knew about his victims, even heading into the podcast with Andrea, because one of the agreements that she and I came to in the course of dreaming up the Hero Maker podcast was she had taken a lot of time, years, a couple of years to really research Alfredo Prieto, who he was, who his victims were kind of the arc of his criminal missteps.
And we agreed that I would learn with our guests that as we interviewed people and learned more about it, that I would be learning alongside our guests so that I intentionally did not read any more about the case, didn't dive into it.
Joshua Ritter:
[00:26:49]
Wow. Andrea, when did you start to dive into it?
Andrea Freeman:
[00:26:53]
2020.
Joshua Ritter:
[00:26:55]
2020.
Andrea Freeman:
[00:26:55]
Yeah. So I used to go to -- well, I still go to the Sundance Film Festival as much as possible. And my college roommate was a soccer player. Shout out to Mulligan. What's up, Mulligan? And so I would go stay with her in Salt Lake for one night before I go to the festival and then one night on the other side. And that year, I was heading to the festival, and we were kind of like talking and we brought up the events and Rachael and Warren and the soccer team and what's everybody up to and all that kind of stuff. And I was like, why has nobody ever done anything about this story? Because it's true crime, it's so popular. Like, why wouldn't, you know?
So I just started. I went to Sundance, and I just started dropping the one liner I'm thinking about doing a story about my two friends who were murdered in college. And of course, you say my two friends murdered in college, and every producer is like, what? So that's what kind of -- when I recognized that it was a story that not just I was going to be interested in because -- but I think that that seed was planted around the time of the execution, quite honestly. So 2015. Yeah. You want to say something about that, Jen?
Jennifer Morrison:
[00:28:07]
No, I just remember that you and I connected shortly after the execution. You had seen something I'd posted on Facebook that sort of was a, I guess, a jumble of emotions about the execution.
Andrea Freeman:
[00:28:22]
It didn't feel like a jumble of emotions, Jen. I know you're getting emotional right now, but what it felt like was it almost looked like you saw the arc of your life and how it all fit together and how this horrible thing that happened when you were still in your formative years had sent you on a trajectory. And it was like what you've been working for as a police leader your whole life, which is justice had finally come to bear, not only in a professional way, but like in this very personal way. It felt really, but it was packed with emotion. And yes, that's where I was.
Jennifer Morrison:
[00:28:56]
It's very sweet. Yeah, it was very, very, very almost like finally realizing the impact this case had had that had never been resolved or dealt with or even talked through when I was 20 years old when it happened. So yeah, it felt that the execution felt like a really big moment. And she and I connected after that.
And little did we know that a couple years later, the idea to do something and tell Rachael and Warren's story would percolate to the surface. But as soon as it did and she and I talked, we agreed that I should not, there's so much information accessible now, I could have easily dove into all this and played investigator and snooped around but --.
Andrea Freeman:
[00:29:41]
But I will say, Jen, the fact that you are working full time as part of the governor's cabinet and also have a mother you're taking care of and other personal things in your life that demand your time, part of that exploration was, could we possibly do this without forcing Jen into having to prepare a lot? And it was kind of like one of those boundaries that goes, oh, you're going to work within this? And that actually made it seem more compelling.
Joshua Ritter:
[00:30:11]
Yeah. So, I mean, I want to be able to complete the arc of this story with Prieto and him being brought to justice and everything else. But I'm realizing and speaking to you that that's not exactly how it played out for you guys, that you almost revisited it after reconnecting after the kind of ultimate conclusion at least of Prieto in the most serious of sense ultimate conclusion of him. But I want to fill in for listeners how this all kind of concluded so they get a DNA match in California, he's extradited from California to Virginia to face charges for Rachael and Warren's deaths.
Jennifer Morrison:
[00:31:02]
That's right.
Joshua Ritter:
[00:31:02]
Brought on trial in 2007. He's convicted and he's sentenced to death for their killings in Virginia which is --
Andrea Freeman:
[00:31:09]
Three times. Three trials, sentenced to death three times. They wanted to make sure they got it right.
Joshua Ritter:
[00:31:14]
Yeah. No, please talk about that, because that's also really interesting. From this program, we try to do it as at least nominally kind of legally based program. And I think that's a really interesting aspect of all of this, is you do not hear about that.
Andrea Freeman:
[00:31:29]
His defense team was literally one of the best in the country. Peter Greenspun and Jonathan Shapiro, they defended, I don't know if you remember the --
Jennifer Morrison:
[00:31:43]
D.C. sniper.
Andrea Freeman:
[00:31:44]
The D.C. sniper. I mean, these guys are like rock stars and they trotted them out for this guy. And he had the most robust defense you could have. And I think they looked at every single loophole they could find. They looked at every single opportunity to mistrial. They looked at every -- and so it just -- technical details were pointed out. And they had to retry him and retry him. And I think that's part of why that happened.
Joshua Ritter:
[00:32:19]
Which is also a funny aside in all of this, is as he's sitting on trial for a death penalty case in Virginia, he's already convicted and facing death.
Andrea Freeman:
[00:32:34]
Yeah, but they don't know that.
Jennifer Morrison:
[00:32:36]
The jury doesn't know that.
Andrea Freeman:
[00:32:37]
The jury doesn't know that.
Joshua Ritter:
[00:32:38]
No, I know. But I'm saying the defense attorneys do.
Jennifer Morrison:
[00:32:41]
Yeah, but they also knew that --
Joshua Ritter:
[00:32:43]
And everybody else involved.
Jennifer Morrison:
[00:32:43]
They knew that California wasn't going to ever get around to actually executing him. So they brought him to Virginia where they might get it done.
Joshua Ritter:
[00:32:51]
Was that kind of the discussion going around or do you think --
Andrea Freeman:
[00:32:54]
Absolutely. Listen to the Murphy. Yeah, he's the cold case investigator.
Joshua Ritter:
[00:33:00]
Interesting.
Andrea Freeman:
[00:33:01]
Episode eight. Yeah.
Joshua Ritter:
[00:33:05]
Okay. So all right. So to kind of close this arc here. His execution is carried out on October 1st, 2015, in Virginia. We're talking about a crime spree of total --
Andrea Freeman:
[00:33:20]
After, by the way, appeal, appeal, appeal, appeal, waiting for phone calls from the governor right there, right before it happens. Like, are they going to stay the execution? Protesters outside. Oh, yeah.
Joshua Ritter:
[00:33:32]
Yeah. And you're giving me facts that are updated even from what I know and the research that we've done on this. But it's alleged nine murders. You're now saying one additional unidentified victim, four rapes at least. Right. And this is over, and this was what I found astonishing, a two-year period. Is that right?
Andrea Freeman:
[00:33:58]
Well, his crimes, I think, started around '84, like their documented crimes started in '84.
Jennifer Morrison:
[00:34:04]
Yeah, one, I think it's the Bob Murphy episode where we know that he was involved in an abduction and a rape earlier when he was posing under another name. And then the same investigator who investigated that rape when he was a young detective on the sex crimes unit ended up being the cold case detective on Rachael and Warren's case.
And when he got the box of info and was going through it as all good cold case investigators do when they first get assigned a new case, a driver's license fell out of the box, and it was that guy that he had investigated for an abduction and rape using a different name. Turned out to be the same guy who murdered Rachael and Warren. Incredible coincidence. Like spine tingling when you listen to that episode.
Andrea Freeman:
[00:34:50]
But you're right. It's about an 18-20 month period where he is out there doing all his stuff both on the East Coast and then moves back to California and on the West Coast as well.
Jennifer Morrison:
[00:35:03]
The stuff that we know about.
Andrea Freeman:
[00:35:04]
Yeah, the stuff that we know about.
Joshua Ritter:
[00:35:06]
I don't want this to turn into an episode about him. I mean, it's about you guys and the other lives affected, but I am curious as to what was learned about him? Do we have any idea as to what created this monster in your investigation? What is learned about this man?
Andrea Freeman:
[00:35:27]
I don't want to give him any out whatsoever.
Jennifer Morrison:
[00:35:33]
Oh, I think it's a very typical story of very broken humans. Somebody who came from a background of significant and repeated trauma in their formative years, somebody who --
Andrea Freeman:
[00:35:47]
In El Salvador.
Jennifer Morrison:
[00:35:47]
In El Salvador, grew up with his father in prison and having seen his grandfather executed on the front yard.
Andrea Freeman:
[00:35:57]
However, he has four other siblings.
Jennifer Morrison:
[00:36:01]
Who all turned out okay.
Andrea Freeman:
[00:36:03]
Yeah. Had very -- and are having productive lives and families and all of that stuff.
Jennifer Morrison:
[00:36:08]
And then the story continues that he probably regarded his father who was on the East Coast and also serving time for rape at the same time that he was killing our friends. That he probably had a poor role model in his father. And he got deeply involved in a vicious gang called Pomona North Side. And there was drugs involved. I mean, it's kind of all the pieces, the broken home, the childhood trauma, the drugs, the gangs, the poor role modeling. And this is what was unleashed on society.
Joshua Ritter:
[00:36:41]
God. All right. Well, you talked about it. Now is the point in this kind of history of the execution has happened. Jennifer, you make this Facebook post. Walk us through that. What happened? How did you guys reconnect and lead us now to this path of how we end up with the podcast that you guys have?
Andrea Freeman:
[00:37:03]
Well, like I said, I go to Sundance and I'm like, hey, I'm thinking about doing this thing. By June I think of that year, 2020, I had a development deal to tell the story as a television show with a wonderful production company. And we worked for about a year. They helped me brought some resources to the table. I did 21 pre-interviews with people. We pitched it to television companies. It didn't get bought. We got a lot of really positive feedback.
But once that it didn't get bought in that framework, everybody kind of dispersed and I was like, okay, but it's my story and I still want to tell it. It still needs to be told and I think we can do some good with it. And two of the interviews that I had done, one was with Jen. I felt like she was such a great person to collaborate with because she has this life, 30 years of police leadership wisdom. And to bring that to the voice of the podcast would be immeasurable.
And then we had also talked about Tom Jackman, two-time Pulitzer Prize winning Washington Post journalist who covered our friend story for 15 years, joining us on the podcast. But unfortunately, or fortunately, when we said, okay, Tom, we're ready to go, he was like, I know I said yes, but --
Jennifer Morrison:
[00:38:31]
January 6th happened, and he had to go cover all the trials.
Andrea Freeman:
[00:38:33]
January 6th happened. He was covering that and he was like, I'd love to do it, but I haven't seen my family in a month. So they come first. But then we had a wonderful interview with him, and he's been very kind and he appreciates what we're doing, and he seems to think we're doing a good job. So, yeah, we just started interviewing people. And Jen, do you want to speak to the commitment that we made in terms of what the podcast would be about?
Jennifer Morrison:
[00:38:59]
Well, I want to say from my perspective that this was a certain circumstance where I had no bandwidth to take on a project, and I had never listened to a single podcast. I knew what a podcast was, right, but I had never listened to a podcast, never mind try to make one. But I trusted Andrea because she's a fancy executive producer and stuff out in LA. She must know about these things.
So I agreed to get on board with this project because it was truly a passion project of both of ours to tell Rachael and Warren's story that had never been told. Yes, that necessitates talking about Alfredo Prieto but that's okay because his story might also be important to some people. And so we agreed to do this podcast.
And as Andrea said, as a matter of practicality, because I had no time, I didn't have time to do a lot of research. But it also turned out to be a neat way for her to gauge my reactions as we were learning new information, as I was learning new information in real time on the podcast and to be able to apply my experience to what I was hearing, to be able to be in dialogue with other leaders in the public safety space to try and draw out their wisdom.
And so what we agreed on is that the Hero Maker, the name of it would be so that in each episode we could try to identify the hidden heroes in these tragedies, whether it's this case or another case, who are the people who make -- who are the heroes? Who are the heroes behind the obvious one? The cop who chases down the bad guy. The prosecutor who gets the win. Right. And we have tried to highlight in each episode a hidden hero and bring them to the forefront.
The ancillary goals of the podcast are to leave some nuggets of wisdom for the current and next generation of law enforcement leaders and to hopefully engage in a healing journey not just for ourselves, but for other listeners who may have experienced a similar situation and certainly for our teammates and classmates at GW. And I can tell you that it truly has been healing and it's amazing to me how therapeutic this has been.
Andrea Freeman:
[00:41:21]
It's very surprising. I mean, I did not set out to feel, experience healing. And it has been great.
Joshua Ritter:
[00:41:30]
Have you received feedback from your classmates and the other folks who've -- not even the ones who you're interviewing in a part of it, but are people reaching out? Tell us about that.
Andrea Freeman:
[00:41:42]
Yeah. I mean, I will hear and it's sometimes very random. Just someone will say, thank you so much, thank you so much for doing this. I'm listening. Or I can't listen to a lot of it because it's just too much for me. But I heard this one episode, and it made me, it brought relief. They are really thankful, and they are really going through, and in their own pace, a transformation out of it.
Jennifer Morrison:
[00:42:13]
I think that's right. There's a lot of our friends who like me, like you, we were all young, we were busy. And this happened right before we all went away for Christmas break. Right. And then you come back and you're diving into the new semester. Life moved on for a lot of people. And I think that now that some of our friends and classmates are taking the time to revisit this, they are addressing a trauma that perhaps never got addressed. And we know that that's never going to result in anything good.
So it has been a healing journey for us, but for many of our colleagues. And actually, there has been some very random people who have been listening to the podcast who have said to me, this is so informative. I'm learning a side of law enforcement that I've never seen. Like, I love the conversations you're having with thought leaders, with the woman from the lab when we broke down in one episode, broke down exactly what the DNA does and what it can do now versus what it could do in '88 and '90.
And they've just said this is just so fascinating. You guys pick really cool people and guess that's really it. We talk to people on our podcast that we would want to talk to in real life so we don't talk to losers or assholes and we just like we talk to people we'd want to have a beer with. And I think it's surprised me how much I enjoy this. And I can tell you that now that we have 27 episodes out, I have listened to 27 podcasts now.
Andrea Freeman:
[00:43:39]
Josh, I also want to share there are all kinds of things that we can share about healings and transformations and great conversations that we're having. I do want to share, Jen said that one of our goals is to leave nuggets of wisdom in the law enforcement area, and we're hoping criminal justice and also public safety. And I would like to just point to a few of the things that I've learned specifically about public safety in this process. And thank you for this, Jen.
One of the things that really jumped out at me came from episode two with Renee Williams, who's the executive director at the National Center for Victims of Crime. I learned that 90 percent of juvenile offenders who are incarcerated were victims of a crime themselves that didn't receive services. Remember this, Jen?
Jennifer Morrison:
[00:44:31]
Yeah. Yeah.
Andrea Freeman:
[00:44:32]
And so that's one piece of wisdom that could make a huge difference if we can start by providing rich and lasting support for victims, we have a good chance of reducing the number of offenders. To me, that's really actionable. Another thing that was really inspiring was we spoke with Chief Swoboda Episode 27, public safety needs to be co-produced. This is something that Jen says a lot in the podcast.
But he was such a great example of the difference it can make when you are not having a one-way conversation about public safety. He's an incredibly progressive, well, an incredible progressive police leader. And there are many others who are finding these creative ways to interact with their community and understand their community's needs and work together. So that's something I've really learned.
Jennifer Morrison:
[00:45:32]
Let's not forget that you brought me one of my favorite guest, which was Jared Seide from the Center for Council. And I was so jazzed by the work they're doing that I've actually applied for a large federal grant to try and replicate this work in the state of Vermont, both with incarcerated people, people who are newly released into the community, but still under the supervision of corrections and inside first responder agencies. So that's episode 15 if you want to get jazzed.
Andrea Freeman:
[00:46:02]
Episode 14, I looked it up.
Jennifer Morrison:
[00:46:03]
Is it 14?
Andrea Freeman:
[00:46:04]
Yeah.
Jennifer Morrison:
[00:46:04]
It's an incredible episode about the Center for Council. And these are things that I think we actually got turned on to Jared because you knew him, and we had to fill in. Somebody dropped out at the last minute. So it was sort of a happenstance. And it was one of the most incredible interviews. And that episode remains one of my favorites. And it's hopefully going to pay dividends in the State of Vermont.
Andrea Freeman:
[00:46:26]
Well, and beyond. But that was probably one of the first things I learned, Josh, in doing this podcast or in starting to research was that justice professionals and law enforcement professionals in particular are experiencing ongoing trauma. I mean, I probably could have guessed it, but to talk to them and to have them share with me that there aren't really solid institutionalized ways of helping them cope.
And certainly not in real time that a lot of times when these folks retire from 35-year career in law enforcement, all the things that they never unpacked come rushing back and they have to deal with them and they're out there doing that job of public safety and law enforcement with this, like, repeated trauma. So, yeah, I mean, and those are just a few things. I mean, there's more.
Joshua Ritter:
[00:47:26]
Yeah. So you're not -- what I like about your project as well is that it's not your typical podcast about a case. There's a bunch of podcasts, true crime podcasts out there that will follow a crime and kind of tell it in an episodic way. And it's a limited series and it's ten episodes long and it kind of goes through the whole arc of that. You guys are not doing that. It's much more of an exploration of a lot of other themes that you've highlighted for us here. But your 27 episodes in, tell us what is the plan moving forward? What can people look forward to?
Jennifer Morrison:
[00:48:07]
Well, definitely more dirt roads because we seem to keep finding these fascinating people to take a dirt road with. I think I'll turn to Andrea for the order of play coming up. But I know that we are wrapping up season two in the next little bit and that we hope to speak to one of Alfredo Prieto's defense attorneys to get their perspective.
Andrea Freeman:
[00:48:29]
That's a big one. So we have gotten a yes from his defense attorney. The other two big ones I'm working on are Tom Selleck. Jen wants me to get Tom Selleck.
Jennifer Morrison:
[00:48:39]
I do.
Andrea Freeman:
[00:48:41]
Tom, we know you're listening. Media@theheromakerpodcast.com. I have spoken with one of Prieto's siblings and I'm hoping that they will join us to share some stuff with our audience. I think that's a really interesting perspective. And I have also tracked down one of his --
Jennifer Morrison:
[00:49:13]
Codefendants.
Andrea Freeman:
[00:49:13]
Accomplices. And who is in San Quentin. And I'm in the process of seeing if we can speak with him.
Joshua Ritter:
[00:49:24]
Wow. Incredible stuff. Jen and Andrea, honestly, it was an honor. And thank you so much for coming on and doing this and sharing a small part of this journey with us. Tell people where to go. Where can they go to find the podcast? Where can they go to find out more about you all? Where should people look?
Andrea Freeman:
[00:49:49]
So we are at @TheHeroMakerPod on all social media and we have a website, theheromakerpodcast.com, where you can get all of our episodes and also vote for us in July. We're up for three People's Choice Podcast Awards. What?
Joshua Ritter:
[00:50:04]
Fantastic.
Andrea Freeman:
[00:50:06]
Thank you.
Joshua Ritter:
[00:50:06]
Fantastic. Fantastic.
Jennifer Morrison:
[00:50:08]
If you Google Jennifer Morrison, you will be sadly disappointed because I am not the famous actress.
Andrea Freeman:
[00:50:16]
Yeah. And thank you, Joshua. Really honored to be part of your exploration of crime and your show. Lovely to meet your audience. Thank you for listening, everyone.
Joshua Ritter:
[00:50:29]
Again, thank you, guys. As always, I'm your host, Josh Ritter. You can find me on Instagram and Twitter at @JoshuaRitterESQ or at Joshuaritter.com. You can find our Sidebar episodes wherever you get your podcasts. And we want to hear from you. If you've got questions or comments you'd like us to address, tweet us your questions with the hashtag #TCDSidebar. And thank you for joining us at the True Crime Daily Sidebar.
